I began yesterday by referring to this whole affair as a fiasco.
And after dwelling on the matter I’ve confirmed it to myself. The whole idea of ‘relocating’ and staying where you are defies sanity. It is (to quote Chief Wiggum, or was it George Bush Jnr – I watch so many cartoons – I forget) unpossible.
N17 is a significant room in my memory palace. And true to life, despite all it’s magical and life affirming content, it’s an absolute pig to get to – through all the kitchens I’ve ever stood in, past every chair I didn’t find comfortable and beyond all the old furniture crammed into my grandparents house I used to visit as a boy. And then, eventually I am there.
Rather than a room as such, it’s a long high ceilinged corridor. The walls bare vast images. Some in sepia which are animated but playing at half speed. Others are so loud I’ve had to mute their soundtrack just to prevent myself being aurally fried by the sensory overload – like terrorists being played a medley of Barney and Megadeath at 300 decibels.
The floor is suddenly really hard and my arches ache just two steps in. Everything is so close. I have other rooms that this room could become lost in. But this is almost claustrophobic there is so much packed in. The sensations are expectation and excitement and everything is so bloody close and well, a bit daunting.
I’m outside Seven Sisters. The ceremony of the long walk.
The stadium was miles away and it’s now as if the back drop to a play has dropped, hurtled down about ten feet away from me. A crime scene hits me like toothache. Horses, men, horseshit, lager, fags, mobile phones, laughter and a helicopter. A helicopter!
I am of course in 1983 and as the phrase goes, the very portrait of a younger man.
Curiously the game itself is so big that it’s out of focus. electric green with microscopic fuzzes of white bustling about in to an out of sync grinding wave of crowd noise. This is actually exhausting. Devouring a sensory overload starts off being brilliant, but I’m tiring fast.
It’s over. Back outside and I can zoom in on a fruit and veg stall. I can hear cheers after a win alternate with the grunts and groans peppered by the noise of the seat flaps hitting their backs that follow a loss…
If you’re still here, thank you for indulging me. And if you’re skim reading – welcome back.
My point is that if some reprehensible fiend were to blow up The Lane tomorrow, I have my memories and the rest of my days to revisit them. That room provides not just one event. That room houses perhaps the most sophisticated cinema of Tottingham memories I can imagine.
I often use the phrase, ’emotional investment’. And I don’t use it cheaply or in a disrespectful way. For all of us White Hart Lane has become a part of our lives. We revel in it’s history like a happy dog rolling on grass.
But outside of our minds (which themselves gently fail, little by little) nothing lasts forever.
I’ve stood outside the house I was born in. Is it still there or now just a small corner of an Asda car park? I don’t know. But I’m still here. As noisy and slippery as the day I blessed the world. I haven’t been paved over.
What if I had lived forever in that two up two down? Blimey. All the anecdotes I would not have now is one thought. Compared to the marginally less than dull life I’ve had so far, the idea of having been shackled to a terraced house in the same country for 42 years doesn’t appeal at all.
My parents remember it fondly. But then they had the luxury of memory whilst sitting in rooms big enough to swing cats in – not a continued existence in an ever decreasing terraced reality.
The last blog was one of the best we’ve done. I don’t mean we, as in the Harry Hotspur team like my mate Simon at ENIC did, bless ‘im. I meant you and me. I know the mood. I don’t need a poll to tell me. Hell, I’d vote to stay if it did any good. But what inspired me to blog that piece yesterday wasn’t that there was going to be some chap on the radio or whatever, it was the inertia, the collective dumbfoundedness of everyone as the airbrushed arena we’d all been gawping at for months seemed to have been shelved or near as dammit.
Even the ‘powers that be’ have been questioning THFC’s intent over Stratford. Pah, it’s simply to put the wind up Haringay. No it isn’t. I get the sense that the proposed redevelopment plan in N17 has been met at every turn with self interest and protocol that would make you wanna self harm. No surprise that two immediate consequences of the Stratford bid is the threat of civil disorder from mentally malnourished West Ham hams and the threat of the compulsory purchase orders being revisited.
Calling cards of the grimly stupid and the greedy.
The reality is that Levy & Co are used to making unpopular decisions. I’d speculate that they make ten unpopular ones for every one good one. In fact the ratio is probably worse. Maybe we should lend them our support.
Let’s swerve the whole, ‘it’s a sh*thole’ argument’ for both locations. Neither areas are magnificent and many good decent folk who don’t fritter away any part of their days being witty on the web – using hundreds of pounds worth of computer- live real lives in both parts of north and east London. Self interest must take a back seat. And the first casualty may just be you, dear reader.
The benefits to the Club would be enormous. The redevelopment of the Lane in N17 would not guarantee the future. Despite the cost. It would be like taking over a derelict pub in Birkenhead and making it a destination gastro-pub run by the next Heston Bloomingwotsit.
And just who is going to flock to buy the Spirit Of Gracious Living that will be the apartments? Who will stroll the magnificent aisles of the supermarket? Come off it, you nipping in for a prepacked sandwich doesn’t count.
Stratford will not have a running track.
The suggestion as things stand is to pretty much rip the Olympic thing down and use the resources that surround it. I made the analogy (woulddathunkit) to herself last night that West Ham’s willingness to take the stadium as it stood was akin to us sleeping in our car. It was the opposite of ideal, but could be done if beggars couldn’t be choosers. Olympic legacy my arse.
Stay where we are and we will become a really, really big Fulham. Spurs fans need to embrace the fact that for all the ranting, raving and negotiating, the Tottenham legacy is the one to safeguard. A legacy is not made of bricks and mortar.
…alternatively of course you can opt to put your underpants over your head, shove pencils up your nose and say, ‘Wibble’.
I agree with HH’s sentiments. At first my gut reaction was NEVER leave the Lane, but N17 is a transport nightmare.
Haringey council can fuck right off. They have milked us enough. We will take our money and be milked elsewhere.
I’m in favour of the move but only if we can build a super stadium that eclipses those Asrewipes down the road. But I can’t see that would get the go ahead. Too much baggage what with the Athletics and the pikey boys.
Harold, you are talking bollocks.
We are TOTTENHAM Hotspur not Stratford nospurs.
Big Chiv told me a few years back that the existing stadium could be extended to 48000, so if there is not enough dosh for the new stadium why not extend the existing one and stay in the area that not only harbours our history but also our soul. I believe football has entered an uncertain financial era where large transfer fees and obscene wages will no longer be the norm and who’s to say that we’ll be able to fill a 56,000 seat stadium in 3 years time.
If we can be a top four team competing reasonably well in the transfer market with the current set up maybe an extra 12000 seats at WHL would suffice. Moving to Stratford may be cheaper than redeveloping the lane but whatever it costs still has to be paid for
The transport problems are real but who’s to say Stratford will be any easier to get in and out of ? Most large stadia present transportation problems but 36000 still manage to get to most of our home games.
There will never be a moral argument for leaving N17. It is not a question of practicalities – supporting a football team has nothing to do with logistics, and has everything to do with loyalty and passion.
So you don’t want a shiny new stadium then ODM?
I want to stay in my spiritual home a new stadium outside of N17 means nothing to any real Spurs fan.
Please correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t you a long standing season ticket holder? So you’re likely to be more than familiar to the journey and whole experience of a matchday. Moving would be change and that’s what you probably don’t want.
Some of our lot probably want change so that we can be season ticket holders and get to develop the whole experience that you’ve been party to.
Some of us want change so that we can see our club get bigger and improve.
‘Real Spurs fans’ are lucky because they’ve had so many years being able to set themselves apart from those who just watch it on telly, or on a stream, or on motd, or go a few times a year.
Loyalty and passion for most is done away from WHL because of not being able to get a ticket to a match let alone a season ticket. Opening up more seats at WHL with no transport improvements is going to be a nightmare, its bad enough now!! Not a nice experience taking your young kids to a game when you manage to get a ticket, because the travel is so bad.
My loyalty is to the club and team, these supporters saying they’ll cancel their season tickets over a move of 5miles arent exactly loyal to the club or team if they follow through with their threats.
What makes you think the transport is going to be that much better in East London? I know what’s promised but unless TFL pile on extra trains it might still be rubbish.
Why is moving to East London the only alternative to rebuilding WHL?
You’ve said it there. TFL etc have promised improved services. It’s more than they’ve promised Spurs for the NDP.
I do sympathise with the ticket issue Cantwait2go but I am sure you would rather take your kids to N17 than East London given the choice
I’ve been on the season ticket waiting list for 10 years.
“Mr Lammy expressed his opinion to me that he would rather keep us in Tottenham even if it means we are unable to redevelop White Hart Lane. We do not find this acceptable nor do we think our fans, who want to see the Club grow, be able to buy season tickets and see success on the pitch, will find it either.”
Thanks Astro and Snap for highlighting Levys repost. Lammy says he is a Spurs fan. The best possible future of Spurs cannot be achieved with this sort of backwards thinking. It’s exactly this kind of mindset which paints politicians in a bad light, and results in a solid working class borough becoming impoverished and degenerate. How can I put this politely yet succinctly?
Cunts the lot of them! Haringey needs to pull its finger out of its collective arseholes. The fact that the scum library got government help and not a penny has been offered for our redevelopment and the improvement of an area in dire need, is pathetic.
A short case study.
In the nineties, Vålerenga Fotball made the move from it’s home for 55 seasons, Bislett Stadion, to the larger, more modern Ullevål Stadion. The move was deemed neccessary as the facilities at Bislett were in a poor state of repair. The move to the national football stadium at Ullevål would also accomodate more fans for key matches.
Vålerenga is the best supported team in Oslo, the capital of Norway. They have an illustrious history in Norwegian football, but the strength and dedication of their support was truly on display in the nineties. On the field, results were variable, and the club spend several years swinging between the top and secondary divisions. Even in these troublesome times, their core supporters, Klanen (The Clan), turned out in the thousands. Their home attendance was only bested by Rosenborg (who were in the midst of a leage-winning streak unparralelled in Europe before or since), and their away support second to none.
Although they seldom fill their new stadium’s 25.000 seats, their support has only grown in the years since their move. An interesting twist is that Ullevål was until recently owned in majority by Lyn Football Club (I say recently because Lyn sadly went bankrupt last year, and were removed from the division system entirely. Beware Man City). Lyn are Vålerenga’s traditional and long-standing rivals.
Also worth noting is that Vålerenga (the place now, not the team) is located in the heart of the East side of Oslo. Lyn was the west-side team. To this day the supporters of the teams are generally geographically (as well as demographically) distinct. That is despite the fact that both Ullevål and Bislett are located centrally to the West.
Conclusion as it relates to Spurs’ situation:
In spite of playing at the center of their rival’s territory, in their rival’s stadium for a number of years (they have to pay rent for their home games) for two generations, the identity of Vålerenga fans has not diminished. To the contrary, it has grown.
Vålerenga’s dream has always been to build it’s own stadium in it’s traditional home on the East side. The club continues to work towards this goal.
My point is, and I think this example supprts it, as follows:
For a football club, a stadium is like an office. It’s where the team goes to do it’s work. The home of the team will always be with the fans.
Ok, so we move a few miles East. That doesn’t change the fact that Tottenham is a North London club. It doesn’t mean that Bill wasn’t our greatest manager ever. We still had Waddle, Gazza and Ardiles.
And most importantly, it doesn’t mean that we can’t dream of moving back to North London when we need a 100.000-seater some day in the future.
COYS!
“Ok, so we move a few miles East. That doesn’t change the fact that Tottenham is a North London club.”
Well actually it does. If you have a modest understanding of the geography of London you’ll know that Stratford is in EAST London
But the fans will still be in North London.
Not in Stratford they won’t be.
On gameday, true. But surely you’re a Spurs fan the rest of the week too, no?
Being the only true North London club seems important to most Spurs fans and I would be more sympathetic to a move within North London. But moving to East London is a bit like asking the England team to play our home games in France or Germany.
Ummm, no. It simply isn’t comparable. You can take the tube from North London to Stratford. The games will still be easily accessible for North Londoners (more easily, by some accounts).
Let me put it this way. If Spurs start playing games at a stadium at Stratford, will you not still be inclined to infect the litte ODM jr’s with the Spurs virus? Just as your father likely instilled it in you?
Say what you will about the pitiful excuses for primates that are Spammer and Orient fans, but give them a little credit. I strongly doubt that even they would stop passing on their club loyalties to their offspring, just because a more successful side started playing a game every fortnight in their back yard.
What you have overlooked (or ignored) in my original post is the contention that the stadium locale has little to do with a club’s identity. If you are born in East Oslo, you’ll bloody well grow up being a Vålerenga fan, even if you have to take the tube West to watch home games. And if you’re born in the West, there is no way you’re going to be a Vålerenga fan, even if they play near you.
Vålerenga’s identity lies in East Oslo. F*ck it. Vålerenga’s identity is East Oslo. East Oslo’s identity is Vålerenga. Doesn’t matter where the stadium has been since World War II.
Likewise, Tottenham’s identity is North London. North London’s identity is Tottenham.
If a change of venue actually does change those truisms then I guess The Mail, Sun, Sky, BBC and all the rest are right. Spurs fans truly are fickle.
I choose not to believe that. I choose not to be that insecure. I choose to believe that Tottenham’s identity, glorious history, heritage and legacy are too strong to be diluted by anything, including having to take a trip five miles to the East every other week to watch games. As long as people in North London predominantly support Tottenham, then Tottenham will be a North London club. And people in North London will continue to support Tottenham.
I’m totally with you – redeveloping the current site would be better than any alternative. But if it doesn’t end up that way we need to remember that it will in no way, shape or form spell the end of Tottenham Hotspur FC, merely the beginning of a new chapter in the club’s illustrious history.
Would I stop supporting Spurs? Good question.
I would imagine that I would still support Spurs but would that Stratford incarnation still be Spurs ?
The players and management are forever changing though the history has a common thread but if the stadium is rebuilt elsewhere (and Stratford really is elsewhere) will it be Tottenham Hotspur in name only ?
Milton Keynes Dons have an historical connection to Wimbledon but nobody thinks of them as Wimbledon. The Goons have moved within a stones throw of Highbury and that seems right. Man City are still in Manchester. Brighton’s new place is still within the Brighton conurbation. In fact I am struggling to think of a club that has successfully relocated to an area that does not identify with it’s history.
I don’t personally know any serious Spurs supporters (apart from HH) who would welcome a move to Stratford.
I think City is an interesting example actually. The people that support City heavily identified with the Moss Side area – An area like Tottenham that has been ignored for generations and is extremely run down.
There was a big wrench at moving away to a different part of Manchester as they felt they were deserting their roots.
Let’s not forget, that on a comparative scale their move was just as heinous as our proposed move. They may still be called Manchester but the regional topography is just as clearly drawn as ours… Only we don’t have the advantage of being called ‘London Hotspur’, if we were, this brow beating would all be just guff as we would still be in London.
Everything is relative.
Anyway, I want to stay at the Lane, I just don’t want us turning into Leeds so that you can sit back and smile saying ‘I did that and I’m proud, because I refused to move 5 miles as I stick to my roots’.
Pride cometh before a fall as they say.