The final installment of Martin Cloake‘s views on the whole Stratford debate.
Another thank you to Martin for letting us hack his work up and so give us a great catalyst for debate.
One of the problems with the opposition to the Stratford proposals is the high profile of David Lammy. He never seemed particularly interested in Spurs before, but now he’s the champion of the ordinary fan. And his interventions come across as grandstanding.
There’s also the fact that he is attempting to pin much of the ‘blame’ for Tottenham’s interest in Stratford on Boris Johnson.
I’m no more a fan of Johnson than I am of Lammy, but the fact that Lammy is managing the Mayoral campaign of Johnson’s rival Ken Livingstone does make you think. There are many people people playing a game within a game here.
While it’s not clear whether Spurs ever asked for the public assistance Lammy says they should have, it’s also not at all clear that Lammy has done much constructively to address the real concerns Spurs have about their relationship with Haringey.
I was initially critical of what seemed to be Spurs’ insistance that a lot of public funds be used to support their private company. But the pendulum seems to have swung now. I’d have more time for Lammy if he told us clearly what constructive proposals he’s put forward to broker a deal that would keep Tottenham in Tottenham.
Some of the arguments the club and people seeking to its case have used are simply daft and a little insulting. I’ll say again that I think there’s a lot of tosh talked about ‘community’ by the anti-Stratford campaigners, but Spurs have matched them.
The club said that Stratford “is only five miles east”. Anyone who knows anything about London knows that even a mile makes a huge difference in this big and complex city in which the concepts of manor and loyalty are deeply entrenched.
Architect David Keirle, who it looks like may have been put up as a lightning conductor in this whole debate, said that no one wanted to move from Maine Road to the City of Manchester stadium when he was involved with that, but now no one would move back.
David, if you take a look at a map you’ll see both stadiums are in Manchester. Which may explain things. There’s more than a hint of ‘we’ll do it and the mugs will come’ about some of the views put forward – although to be honest us fans don’t help ourselves with our often illogical loyalty.
The daft arguments aren’t confined to one side, though. There’s a lot of jumping up and down about how knocking the stadium down would be a waste of taxpayers money. But even if West Ham get the stadium, much of it will be torn down and public money will be used to help the club convert it for its purposes. It’s that fact which may well swing the decision for Spurs in these austere – at least for those of us who don’t work in the banks – financial times.
I set out the position my heart takes at the start of this piece.
But I recognise – God I’m getting old – that the head must play its part too. If it is true that it would damage the club financially to stay in Tottenham, and that case is far from proven, then I’d regretfully accept the necessity to move. I’d probably go to Stratford to watch the team, but I don’t think it would be the same. But when we talk about value and investment and return, what is meant? What makes financial sense for, let’s say, an investment company looking to sell to a major player in the entertainments market, may not make the same sense in the longer term for a football team.
Tottenham’s owners are an investment company and investment companies seek a return on their investment. Spurs existed a long time before ENIC came, and will – let’s hope – exist for a long time after they go.
The interests of the owners and the club are not always the same, although Tottenham’s board members get very annoyed if you point that fact out. It’s that potential difference of interest that sits at the heart of this, and which explains why the debate is getting bitter. Because it’s possible that ENIC and Joe Lewis could make a nice return on their investment while leaving behind a franchise with an increasingly tenous link to its history and which is just one arm of a global entertainment business.
To me, all the indications are that Spurs will go to Stratford if they possibly can. I am far from convinced that is the right decision, or that the decision has been made in the interests of the club rather than the club’s owners. I’ve already seen the heart of the home support ripped out in the 1980s when executive boxes replaced one of the finest popular terraces in the country. I’ve watched the club drift under the awful leadership of Alan Sugar.
And now I should be enjoying some of the finest football I’ve ever seen my club play. But, and there’s always a but with Tottenham, there is a shadow hanging over us, the shadow of Franchise Hotspur in Stratford, the global entertainment channel.
I’m prepared, still, to be convinced. But right now, I’m not.
Click the image below to launch the Holly Weber gallery
I think its fantastic how many people have put their oar in – democracy in action – even Holly Weber has a couple of good points to make.
We have ever big mouth and vested interest in the Capital all competing to come out with the biggest load of bullshit and not a hint of self interest in sight (honest guv!).
The list ranges from some schoolgirl olympic prospect, to the guys in South East London who will suffer if the National Athletics centre isnt refurbished (why would it be if there is a new athletics stadium in Stratford?), Crystal Palace FC, Ken Livingstone, David Lammy’s codpiece designer, the Haringay islamist vegan lesbian mothers’ association who are worried about their future funding, Jimmy’s kebab shop etc etc.
Poor old Daniel – he’s been offered an amazing deal on a Learjet to get away from it all but he cant commit himself to it just yet, at least not until he’s got rid of Robbie Keane.
Why is everybody so keen for us to take on 450M+ of debt lining the pockets of Lammy & his chums,how are we going to buy players carrying that lot?. we could stay put & increase capacity to 48k for under 50M or just stay put at 36k.
http://football-talk.co.uk/13400/stadium-move-latest-letters-facts-and-figures%e2%80%a6/
read this, dont know how to make it a link though, just copy and paste this into your search bar, very intresting makes levy look a bit of a liar.
Tottenham as a location hardly exists anymore. The place you are talking about is a small rundown soulless part of Haringey. Haringey is a Borough created in the mid 1960’s as part of the creation of the GLC, and given the name of the location of the local greyhound stadium, complete with pretentious mediaeval spelling, rather than Tottenham, with its then proud history. Since the inception of Haringey 46 years ago, the location formerly known as Tottenham has rapidly and inexorably degenerated into a place without hope, full of aliemation, rife with criminality and devoid of aspiration and responsibility. If Tottenham Hotspur leaves the area it will take with it a major link to its formerly proud history. Tottenham Hotspur will NOT lose its history. It will be forever in the hearts and minds of its supporters, and in the written and video archives Tottenham Hotspur is supported by well over a million people worldwide, and known by at least a billion through its televised football exploits over many years. Hardly any of those people will be aware that Tottenham might even exist as a place rather than the name of a football club. The area would lose a major part of its future, if the Club moved, but the club most certainly would not.
It is odd to note the use of the name Stratford Hotspurs – odd because the stadium is far nearer to Old Ford, and equally as close to Hackney Wick and Bow. The “s” at the end of the name is merely a puerile insult. The term franchise is used to try to connect the potential move to that of Wimbledon to Milton Keynes, with which it bears no resemblance whatsoever. Milton Keynes is 81.5 miles from Wimbledon by road; the Olympic Stadium is around 6 miles from WHL. The then new owners of Wimbledon made no secret of or apology for their wish to create a new club in their area which had to be at the expense of Wimbledon’s supporter base, though they would apparently have been welcome there! The owners of THFC clearly want to retain the Club’s name, history, culture and supporter base, and clearly feel that a move 6 miles to a world-class new stadium with world-class transport facilities can be achieved while doing so. It is only the opponents of such a move who vainly suggest otherwise. The comparison with Wimbledon is interesting, since AFC Wimbledon has not found a suitable stadium in Wimbledon or the Borough of Merton since it was formed, and has instead created a new stadium in Kingston, in the Borough of Kingston Upon Thames, of which they are rightly very proud. The relative position if AFC Wimbledon’s new stadium to its old ground at Plough Lane, in terms of distance and Borough location is just about identical to the relative position in those respects of the Olympic Park site to WHL.
The all important factor which has not been mentioned at least in this part of Mr Cloake’s article, is the vast difference in the cost of funding, which makes the Stadium project in N17, completely unviable and threatens the very existence of the Club if the Board are reckless enough to go ahead with it in its present form, and the far more manageable scheme at the Olympic Park down the road.
Quite honestly, for anyone with the interests of Tottenham Hotspur’s future success and prosperity at heart, it’s a no-brainer: if we win the bid – move.
“Quite honestly, for anyone with the interests of Tottenham Hotspur’s future success and prosperity at heart, it’s a no-brainer: if we win the bid – move.”
So say you.
Again, if you can convince yourself that it’s still THFC and not a newly formed franchise renting on the Olympic site, formed purely to make money for its new owners, then move – good luck to you.
I and many others won’t step one foot in the place.
If the NDP is too costly – which hasn’t really been proven yet – then we stay as we are until another solution is found.
I and many others won’t step one foot in the place.
Really ? I mean….really ? :wassat:
Mr Spigott. If you went, you would definitely put stepping one foot in the place. ;-)
I would like a nice clean and well polished stadium that is cheap to buy yet luxurious. I want carpet on the stairs and velvet on the seats with stewards that can use two syllables in one word.
Stratford for me, it makes economic sense. If the Arse can move so can we. ANd Chelsea used to be located in Wales and Manchester was originally near San Francisco
how often do you go now? you seem to be on here looking for illegal streaming links when games are played , so how does it affect you anyway?
that’s aimed at TMWNN right ? :cwy:
Absolutely my monopedic friend,the man with no name allegedly located in the london borough of germany? Tottenheim?
It’s nothing to do with where I am now, but everything to do with making sure there’s a proper football club in Tottenham in the future and not some franchise in Stratford masquerading under the name THFC.
Talking of masquerading, didn’t you have the front to post under your usual screen name?
So Levy at al must be quaking in their boots at the thought of moving to Stratford and loosing such “supporters” as yourself, whose major contibution to the team’s endeavours amounts to the sum total of diddly-squat, or coming onto internet blogs to piss and whine. :-p
ps it takes huge amounts of front to post under the screen name Spurious Supporter, Twnn etc :ermm:
Sadly, Invisibule, I think we’re all in that boat. I went to every home game for about 10 years from about the age of 14 and probably 8-10 a season after, including a few seasons where I did home, away & Europe in the Hoddle days.
I wanted to wallow in the wealth my great devotion had made for the club and it worked out that I’d paid for Lennons right leg for about 35mins of the opening game of the season.
I don’t think the sod even played and wasted all my effort.
We can’t calculate wealth just by money, that, I think is TMNNers point.
…and the comparison with Wimbledon isn’t interesting, not in the slightest.
It’s mildly amusing though that after all that posturing, they’re not even in the same borough. It’s an odd world.